Guitarist
August 1992

Although the original band name was chosen to represent the legendary guitarist/founder's democratic intentions, 'Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac' didn't actually contain the Mac part in its line-up for that famous debut gig at the Windsor Jazz and Blues Festival in August, 1967... "That's absolutely true," explains John McVie, across a small table at Warner Bros' London building. "I thought at the time that leaving John Mayall's Bluesbreakers was a bit speculative, even though Peter, Mick (Fleetwood) and myself had already cut a couple of tracks within the Bluesbreakers band format, one of which was called Fleetwood Mac. So when Peter quit, taking Mick with him, he kept saying, 'Come on, come on.' And I kept answering 'No, I'm safe where I am.'

"So they had to advertise in Melody Maker for a bass player, where they found Bob Brunning, but Peter made the situation clear that the gig was there until he had 'persuaded' me over. And it sounds ridiculous saying it now, but what eventually made me decide to move was when John Mayall brought horns into the BB line-up; I was so dumb that I thought, 'If it's horns, it's not blues.'

"Why I thought that, Christ only knows, but that's how I thought. Then one day, during rehearsal, John turned to one of the horn players and said, 'Okay, play freeform here..." and I thought, 'Freeform? That's jazz! So I went across the street, phoned Peter and said, 'Okay, if you still want me, I'll join.'

"But we were all so stupidly purist then, which obviously changed over the next couple of years, with Peter writing material like Man Of The World and Albatross. We took so much stick for those at the time from the diehard 'Blues Mac' fans. It's funny to look back on it now and think, What the hell was all that about?"

McVie is set to re-examine exactly what that was all about, as work on a new compilation album edges towards fruition...

"There's a definite effort not to make it another 'Greatest Hits' yawn. That has been done to death by ex-managers and ex-record companies who use a list of about two dozen tracks which they write down on a sheet of paper, cut them up and put them in a hat, and whatever order they come out in that's another album.

"But we've found tapes that we'd forgotten about, from the Warners vaults in LA and from CBS in New York. We'll be going through the Warners vaults here, with a list of material that's never been released. The BBC also has previously unheard material that we have access to.

There's so much good stuff that has never seen the light of day. Plus on the anthology there will be original versions of, for instance, Stevie saying, 'This is how Dreams goes.' And I kid you not, she's tapping out 'bom, bom, bom, bom...' on the piano with her index fingers!

"But it serves to show how things evolve. That makes it hopefully more attractive than," he snores loudly, "Greatest Hits Volume Whatever. It's a four CD package and should be out for Christmas. What's even more special about this is that Lindsey's back with us too."

How did Buckingham's re-involvement come about?

"The last show Fleetwood Mac did was Christine (McVie, née Perfect)'s farewell concert. Lindsey came on and sat in for a couple of numbers and really enjoyed being back on the boards with us lot. I don't think he's played with a band since he left, as he's responsible for almost all the instruments on his solo album. So when this came up it was obviously advantageous to have some new tracks for the anthology and so we approached him and asked if he would be interested. And he said yes."

He's a good influence on the band, very creative in a lateral way...

"Oh yes, a genius. But it seems to me that he needs other people to bounce off, even though he can do it all himself. I haven't heard his album and I'm sure it will be good, but I know he thrives on bouncing ideas off other people.

"It will also be interesting to see where he gets the time from too, because there's his solo album release, our anthology, and then in September Mick, Stevie (Nicks), Chris, myself and Billy start a new Fleetwood Mac album, which marks the end of Christine's 'retirement. She spent six months in retirement and then it was, 'When do we start'?

"Hopefully, we'll get back out on the road again. So the train bumps and farts its way along the tracks. It runs out of steam every now and again but generally gets re-fired."

You're obviously still a P-bass user after all this time...

"I've been round the instrument circuit from A to Z, Alembic to Zon, and I always seem to come back to the P-bass, always.

Unfortunately my original Precision got ripped off in a place called Redondo Beach. I can tell you the serial number - maybe someone will come up with it - L12304, with a dragon on the front, crudely carved during a drunken night with Christine! It was a '62, I think. My Fender now is comfortable for me because it's the bass I started out with, and I'm used to that neck width which is like a tree trunk. Have you ever tried to break one of those things? You've got to drive a truck over it, and even then it bends, but doesn't break.

"I have two or three Alembics, which are lovely guitars - great in a studio if you have the time to sit and work with hi-tech electronics. But on stage I find it difficult to change the tone quickly - you've got NASA sitting in front of you! Fine for some, sure, but a P-bass is very simple and it sounds bloody good. Once you've used them, that's your yardstick for everything else."

Talking of your first P-bass, what originally inspired you to get on to the instrument?

"Around the time I was fourteen, which would be 1959, pretty much every street had its little band. It was coming towards the tail-end of skiffle then, and all my mates had guitars. No-one had a bass, so they were all playing lead and rhythm - mainly Shadows stuff. So with me it started off by taking the top strings off and playing bass. "Then I got a 'Beatle' bass, but it was a bit too muffled in its sound. My whole aim was to get a bass like Jet Harris, a pink Fender, but we couldn't afford it, so I did a couple of paper rounds and a milk round, my Dad chipped in and we got one on HP. It was about ninety pounds and he went out on a limb for it, too. So that was the start of it and I've stuck with P-basses since.

"At the beginning of the '60s I lived in Ealing, and used to go to the Ealing Jazz Club when guys like Cyril Davis were playing. This was about a year before I joined John Mayall and in fact the band I was in, The Crusaders, had a gig there after they opened it up for rock'n'roll. But the guy who joined Cyril at that time, Cliff Barton, was a buddy of mine who lived opposite me, and who had turned down the gig with Mayall. John phoned him up looking for a bass player and Cliff gave him my number. So John called me up and that was it-thank you, Cliff. Sad to say he OD'd about four years later.."

Who else would have been in Mayall's band at that time?

"The original band was John, obviously, Davey Graham, a drummer from Manchester called Peter, who was an accountant during the week. We just used to play at weekends and he'd drive down from Manchester! And then the guitarist went from Davey to Bernie Watson, who'd previously been with Screaming Lord Sutch's band; then from Bernie to Roger Dean (yes, the one who does all that artwork on Yes albums) and from Roger Dean to Eric, and then Eric to Greeny and then to Mick Taylor..."

But Eric came back from a working holiday and Peter was out for a little while, wasn't he?

"Briefly, yes. Eric was going to do a trip around the world when he left Mayall, which eventually became a trip to Greece. I think the ideas for Cream were put together on that trip. But Clapton came back and walked straight back into the Bluesbreakers gig, so Pete was out. When Eric left again soon after, John went chasing after Peter again, explained his rather dire predicament, to be met with complete indifference from Peter about returning.!"

You were John Mayall's longest-serving side man, and must have seen a good few guitarists and drummers come and go...

"Mainly drummers. In the five years I played with Mayall, there was Hughie Flint, Aynsley Dunbar, Micky Waller, Mick Fleetwood and then Keef Hartley. I left when Keef was still playing.

Were you aware of the effect that Eric and Peter's contribution was having on music at that time?

"Not really; it was a case of not seeing the wood for the trees. But we definitely became aware of it when we started seeing graffiti saying 'Clapton Is God' in a lot of places - I'm sure it wasn't one guy painting it all over London."

Eric with a spray can.?

"Yes, I could just see him, two o'clock in the morning on the pushbike carrying a ladder and a can of spray paint! But musically, no, we weren't aware of it."

I remember reading an interview with Gus Dudgeon, who did the production on the Bluesbreakers 'Beano' album, and he said that you guys, and Eric in particular, gave him nightmares because it was so loud! He'd almost decided to quit because the recording equipment couldn't handle the volume that Eric was playing at. Does that ring any bells?

"Yeah, but you can imagine the problems that Gus would have at that time, and I could see why he would react like that. The guitar, especially, bled into everything else, which is exactly what engineers didn't want."

Did Mayall specify exactly what he wanted from his musicians?

"John's method of working would be: 'Okay, this is in C, and unless it had abnormal changes we just went for it. And I can't remember a time when he said, 'Don't play that; play this. Hed always give you free rein."

He's so musical that I'm sure his ability to get others to be creative must have been considerable.

"I think that's probably John's strongest talent, to pull the extra out of you, combined with a knack for putting people together. He's got a really good band now, too, which I saw about three months ago. In fact, we were supposed to be doing something with Eric and John, but Eric couldn't make it, or perhaps didn't want to.

"I think John's between record contracts, too, which I can't understand at all. If I had a record company there are a lot of people I would be sure to sign - Albert King doesn't have a label now, for instance - and he'd be on it right away." It can't be denied that many players have John Mayall to thank for their career launch...

"Yes, although I would say that Peter and Eric would have done it anyway. John was a catalyst who gave them the exposure. I know I'm a very lucky boy, and many thanks to John Mayall for steering me right, definitely. I remember my first gig after joining John was at the White Hart, Acton, and I rolled up with my P-bass and my Gibson amp - a Titan was it? - a grey pyramid-shaped amp.

Anyway, I plug in, fresh out from playing Walk, Don't Run and FBI, and John said, 'Okay, we'll do a blues in C.' I turned scarlet and mumbled, 'What's a blues in C?' and he said, 'Just feel your way through it. And it turned out alright...

Were the partings with John ever acrimonious?

"I don't think there were ever any bad ones. But I remember after having resigned, sitting in the front in the band's Commer van - there'd be the driver, the engine cover and then the passenger seat, and you had to take turns sitting on the engine cover. I remember sitting there and Mick Taylor leaning over and saying, 'You f***er.' That was about the only aggro I remember...

"Mick was very much trying to live down the pretty-boy guitarist bit and to be taken seriously as a blues player. But he was real young, even when he joined the Stones - about nineteen or twenty. I think he aged about ten years in one after that! Hopefully he's interested in being in this band that we're trying to put together. He's a good player - a hell of a nice guy, too."

Did you have a personal favourite of all John Mayall's guitarists?

"T'd say Greeny, definitely. He had some material put down which, after reviewing the BBC tapes I told you about, is just amazing for that time, and for his age. Incredible stuff. So Id say Peter, he had more talent in a little finger than I've got in my whole body - no exaggeration. That's why I'm having this push with Stevie that the early BBC stuff should be heard. There's some great playing on it generally, and some amazing guitar work that has never been heard.

"Of course, that makes it all sadder and sicker that these things happened to Peter, and that he's doing what he's doing now. Actually, Mick's in contact with Peter's brother, also Mick, and he's sort of taking care of himself now. I'm not sure if he's playing, but he's definitely better than he was; he's certainly not digging graves any more.

"Looking back, the cracks were really showing when the religious thing began to get obsessional and paranoid, and the weird hangers-on were taking him over. What didn't help was some really impure acid he took in Munich, in 69. He and Danny Kirwan were sort of "kidnapped' after a gig by this young Munich jet set' crowd; they disappeared for three days and when they came back that was it. And I think there is a continual reality problem with flashbacks because of that weekend. Whatever, he was never the same person again, and seemed to care less and less about the band and the music until he announced, mid-tour in 1970, that he was leaving.

"Peter was responsible about fulfilling his obligations regarding contracts and so on, which was about six weeks, and that was it. I think he could see things that we wanted to do invidually, maybe in the way that Hendrix did. He could see a path that he wanted to explore and couldn't in those surroundings. And as I say, the acid certainly didn't help...

"With Danny it wasn't so much the acid; he was just very highly strung anyway, coupled with his excessive drinking. Unfortunately, he's in and out of reality now as well. Mick and me must drive them all there. Jeremy (Spencer)'s with the Children still, last seen in South America: the quest for Jesus. Very bizarre...

THE FOLLOWING PERIOD IN the career of Fleetwood Mac must rank as one of the most incredible in modern musical history. Despite an already traumatic episode resulting in the loss of their creative force and most prominent member, the Mac's troubles were far from over. When Peter Green left, Kirwan and Spencer remained to take the mantle, neither of whom really possessed the ability or motivation to do justice to their new-found roles. Material for the ensuing 'Kiln House' album was sporadic and inconsistent. Spencer had an almost obsessional liking for Elmore James, and specialised in rock'n'roll parody (check out the live bootlegs from the Peter Green era). Kirwan, previously the writer of such numbers as the unbelievably catchy Jigsaw Puzzle Blues, was contributing more nebulous material like Dragonfly. John McVie's wife, ex Blue-Horizon label stalwart and Chicken Shack evacuee Christine Perfect, had joined the band full time. A tour of America ensued. Then, in Los Angeles, Jeremy Spencer disappeared...

"Although we'd been unbelievably disheartened by it all with Peter," continues John, "that was how things were. Then, after apparently sorting everything out band-wise, Jeremy suddenly disappeared and we didn't know if he'd been 'offed', or what, given the uncertainty of Los Angeles. But it seemed like every few months there'd be another little trip up. But Mick and I never questioned ourselves; we just tried to keep it all on the road."

Although Peter returned to help you finish that tour, the early '70s must have been fraught with looking for replacements, before you crystallised the line-up with Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks...

"We never had to scrape, which was good. But yes, after Lindsey and Stevie joined, the whole thing got back to what it was in terms of success, but in American terms, which was obviously bigger. But then the other stuff started happening, personal things, just like a soap opera, the same sort of chaos as it was with the Jeremy/Peter/ Danny saga.

"Although Chris and I had divorced, we still played together, standing three feet from each other, and Lindsey and Stevie were doing the same number: Mick's wife and Bob Weston had an affair, they divorced, eventually re-married, then divorced again. But that was what you put up with if you wanted this entity called Fleetwood Mac to continue."
But Fleetwood Mac capitalised perfectly on the mood of the mid-seventies. People identified with the 'adult heartache' lyrical content coupled with the strong melodies and your R&B rhythm section...

"It was the right thing at the right time. 'Rumours' really accelerated the whole gig to very high levels, which became hard to live up to. But then the record company comparisons started to appear with regard to new material: Well, it's not as good as...' It's a thankless task then, because despite having become the most successful band of the time, you pick up flak for the next album not working commercially. But as soon as you start trying to design Rumours 2'. Well, it could never happen because I think we're incapable of making a plan like that. Some albums will always be more successful than others, but there's still that 'Rumours' yardstick."

There were some very, very big gigs as well...

"Yeah, a quarter of a million people, which is not a gig any more - it's beyond a gig! I remember choppering into the 'US' Festival outside of Boston. I'd never been in a helicopter in my life; you think, This is alright,' until you get in the bloody thing! But your ego's getting massaged and I can take that. It wasn't satisfying in terms of sound, though, because you can't get any sound, even though you've got someone you consider to be the best guy out on the desk, but who happens to be three hundred yards away! You play the best you can, but it's not the same. Even coming down to seventeen thousand you can control the sound. But that was absurd. The whole 'US' thing was absurd, it was a whim. Who was it, Steve Wozniak from Apple? I think it was his birthday party, so he had a fling!"

When Lindsey and Stevie joined the band you were out touring on the circuit before the big-selling albums happened. I remember reading that Stevie had said how hard she found that life, living out of the back of a van, which of course you, Chris and Mick grew up with...

"Yes, the back of the Commer van, that was the gig. Stevie might have tended to exaggerate, but although she had rich parents, she worked as a waitress in Los Angeles to support Lindsey, and they roughed it around a bit. But all the 'I couldn't handle the touring' bit, I take with a slight pinch of salt. I don't remember Stevie Nicks sleeping on top of a Hammond B3 in the back of the van.!"

Despite their overwhelming success, Fleetwood Mac never really shook the slightly dismissive 'blues-band-gone wrong' tag, did they?

"Not really. But I can see why. I've got a BBC tape where we're playing Jenny, Jenny, Jenny, Twist And Shout, Madison Blues, a couple of BB King songs and Oh Well in one recorded set, so people must have wondered, 'Is this blues or not?' In the current discussions with Stevie as to how much of that vintage stuff will be on the CD, if we reach a balance and I don't think there's enough, hopefully it will be on an additional CD somewhere down the line.

"Talking about future projects, there will an inter-reactive CD-ROM which we're putting together. Basically, it's a CD which you insert in your IBM player on an Apple Mac, and you have eighty tracks plus all the videos. And being reactive you can pick up a track, put the mouse on it, access 'Personnel', click again on say, Stevie, and get the history of Stevie, pictures of Stevie, Stevie's videos by themselves - as much information as that CD will hold.

"We're trying to package that with Sony, using our anthology as the first example of the technology. The package comprises a CD player, our anthology and the software to run it, whereas before you needed all sorts of hardware to run videos on computer. You just load it as you would a program, stick it on your power drive and that's it - full video capability."

You have a new album out, and a new band - John McVie's Gotta Band'.

"I originally wanted it to be 'Gorra Band', but nobody in the USA understood! Fleetwood Mac, after signing the current deal with Warners, was given the opportunity to do individual projects within a certain budget. I held my option over until my manager played me a tape of a singer called Lola Thomas. She's got a great voice and she's a good writer. I'm not a writer but I have done some singing, and so we met up and decided to do some songs, with a conscious effort to keep it basic-sounding, and showcase Lola's voice "There aren't many solos on the album either. Mick Taylor has a couple, as has Dave Plenn and there's a tenor solo in there, but that's about it - no bass solos anywhere! I'm in the band, it's got my name on the cover and it's something I helped produce. And I'm singing on one track, I think, in the background... very quietly!

"We're trying to get on a tour with Santana this summer. We've sent them tapes to see if there's a chance of opening for them, which would be great, because you get to do a thirty-five minute set, really powerhouse it, then watch a few of their numbers, get on the bus and go."

There's a very blues/soul sound to it. Did you have much to do with the arrangement?

"From picking the material, yes - the recording of it, not so much.

The producer, Dennis Walker, who's also Robert Cray's producer, knew the places to go and the musicians to hire. I was pretty much out of touch with LA musicians; I'm not a 'socialite' like Mick Fleetwood. He's on the go every single night, which may or may not account for his upcoming divorce."

Do you have difficulty reconciling the fact that there is immense interest in the Mac's past with what you want to do now?
"Not any more. I can see that the interest in the past is because it was an era of good music and change, which I don't really see now.

That might just be my age or being set in my ways, but I don't see that excitement. It wasn't just us; you could go out any day of the week and see something fresh happening.

"But, like it or not, we were there and involved in it, and looking back the amazing thing for me is I'm sitting here, breathing, after all that. I'm amazed that as many people came out of it as did, because there was some abuse happened there, beyond belief really. So, all things considered, there were surprisingly few casualties. Fleetwood Mac just seemed to get more than our fair share..."